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Unknown: I reopen the meeting.

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Unknown: The agenda is the debate on the review of registered incidents in the report Vreemdelingenketen. I welcome the State Secretary of Justice and Security and welcome Ms. Van Torenburg as the first speaker on behalf of the CDA.

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Unknown: President, some time ago, in 2017, we were confronted with a WODC report from which it would appear that the nature and extent of crime committed by asylum seekers would be affected.

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Unknown: The report received the title from perception to fact.

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Unknown: But unfortunately, that conclusion did not turn out to be justified. All kinds of aspects were left out of consideration and that did not give us a clear picture.

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Unknown: We have talked about this a number of times and the statement from the side of the cabinet was clear. Forthaan would be communicated transparently, honestly and completely about the delicts with which asylum seekers have been brought into contact. Nice, we thought.

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Unknown: It is always of great importance that we conduct the debate on asylum seekers on the basis of facts.

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Unknown: Open and honest.

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Unknown: The asylum debate is a loaded debate. Carriers become the key here. And when people get the feeling that facts are being kept, things are being tarnished, the carrier melts like snow before the sun.

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Unknown: And unfortunately, we are here again today because again it is not clear and fully clearly communicated about punishable facts with which asylum seekers are brought into contact.

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Unknown: On the contrary, when setting up the report of foreigners, it was admitted that these reports contain shortcomings, but nevertheless it is reported as it is reported.

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Unknown: And the question is why?

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Unknown: Why do people in this department feel the pressure to do so?

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Unknown: Why did they deliberately write the most serious offences away under the name overrug? Which created an image that the offences committed by asylum seekers would be included.

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Unknown: The state secretary writes that there are no indications that this happened with a conscious intention.

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Unknown: But he does not indicate why that decision was made.

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Unknown: We need to know that.

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Unknown: We have to be able to understand what has happened here. From the letter of the State Secretary, my faction notes that he is also very unhappy with this. I read his need to take responsibility here in the Chamber. And Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity. Thank you.

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Unknown: Then I now give the floor to Mr Wilders on behalf of the PVV.

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Unknown: My dear chairman, after the bond of Theven, we now have the list of Harbers.

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Unknown: Other leading players, but the same practices.

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Unknown: Managed by VVD and CDA mafioso, let the so-called ministry of law and order see what they are really good at. Corruption, fraud, manipulation, everything is taken out of the closet to cover up unscrupulous news.

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Unknown: And this time, this time, the Netherlands had to be foretold about the real state of the asylum industry.

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Unknown: Because that holy grail of the European Union, the open borders, must be protected at all costs. Numbers were therefore rubbed away, statistics professionally polished. 4,600 lawsuits by asylum seekers is of course not a nice business card for that multi-culti cabinet.

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Unknown: Chairman, State Secretary Harborszón, the Netherlands therefore only a top 10 of the asylum criminality. With the most preventive approaches, such as shop theft, threat and destruction.

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Unknown: But behind that curtain of the head of state, he hides the cruel reality.

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Unknown: Thousands of cases, including child abuse.

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Unknown: Attempt to murder, maybe even murder, assault.

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Unknown: Chairman, you will be a victim of such assault or rape.

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Unknown: Je zal maar nabestaande zijn van zo'n vermoord slachtoffer. Je zal maar moeder zijn van een misbruikt kind. En dan zien dat dat misdrijf, wat je leven heeft verwoest, door de staatssecretaris wordt verdoezeld. Onder het kopje overig. Omdat de verdachte een asielzoeker is. Voorzitter, dat is met geen pen te beschrijven. Informatie over de veiligheid van de inwoners van ons land wordt in de doofpot gestopt. Dat is een  a shameful and shameless misconduct, a humiliation to the Dutch citizen. A thorn in the back of those victims and descendants. But that didn't stop there. Because while that ministry was well known for weeks, with the true seriousness of that asylum crime, the State Secretary was standing on Friday just in front of the camera of RTL Nieuws, so much fun to bagatellize the case.  Het zou gaan, en ik citeer, om een klein groepje raddraaiers die wat overlast zouden veroorzaken.

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Unknown: Chairman, with that he has deliberately concealed that it is not wheelchairs, but that it is people who murder, who misbehave, who have run over girls and women. And the naming of wheelchairs, while it is actually about rapists and murderers, chairman, is pure, pure misleiding.

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Unknown: And that long arm, that long arm of the political mafia that apparently sits on the buttons on the rotten Ministry of Justice and Security, that long arm from there also reaches here in the House of Representatives. Because the government parties did everything last week to make this debate

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Unknown: over the elections, not to hold it this week, but to hold it next week. Oh no, that the Netherlands knows before the elections where the asylum industry of the VVD and their friends leads. And that we are here today anyway does not come because the coalition parties came to the conclusion that the smuggling of figures does not work, but comes because it is about the safety of our country and the State Secretary has come into the problem.

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Unknown: Mrs. van Tonenburg.

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Unknown: Speaker, I would like to point out that last week we asked for the debate ourselves. Mr Wilders has not even done that. We asked for the debate. Also directly stated that as soon as there was a letter, we wanted to hold the debate. In this case, these are also the facts.

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Unknown: Mr Wilders would see it when he speaks about, let's talk about facts, that this is also the case here.

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Unknown: Mr Wilders. No, sir. That is not the case.

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Unknown: The facts are that there was a letter on Friday, on Thursday a letter, on Friday a letter, and that it was then, because the letter was in it, that it was on the concept scheme. Suddenly there was a debate on this topic on the concept scheme for this week. And that is, chairman, I understand, the coalition party that was behind the scenes, behind the scenes of the concept agenda, probably you have been there yourself.

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Unknown: Mrs. Van Torenburg. Speaker, this is actually the subject of the debate.

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Unknown: That we have to talk about facts, not about suspicions and not about cleaning up the road. So what we as CDA have done with the support of the Chamber is to request a debate. It wasn't Mr. Wilders. It was us.

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Unknown: And then we stated that we wanted to have a letter with a clarification on how this could have gone wrong. We received three letters today, and we now have the debate on that.

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Unknown: No, president, a new lie from the CDA. That letter was already there on Friday. And you made sure that as soon as it came to the concert schedule, that it was canceled. Because the CDA dreams of a multicultural society in Duikerviel. Thank you CDA.

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Unknown: Speaker, why are we debating that now? Again, because the Secretary of State has come into a problem. He couldn't hide it any longer. Today he himself urged to debate with the Chamber. And Speaker, if there is one ministry that has had to take lessons in recent years from all those political smoke curtains, all those pieces that have been thrown under the carpet, then it is the Ministry of Justice. They really didn't learn anything. They are probably lost again.

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Unknown: And rightly so, Speaker. Because the State Secretary has informed the House of Representatives... ...of the atrocities of happiness seekers in the Netherlands... ...who have committed mass crimes more than a thousand times... ...from assault to murder. And if you don't report that, you have to step up. And I suggest that you do that. And if you don't do that on your own, I will submit a motion to that. Thank you.

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Unknown: Thank you. Then I now give the floor to Ms. Kuiken on behalf of the PvdA.

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Unknown: Chairman, we are dealing here with a group of criminal asylum seekers who are responsible for a lot of insecurity.

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Unknown: A group, above all, who do not get the country out of the cabinet.

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Unknown: And if that is the case, if they are responsible for that insecurity, then you have to be honest about it. Because if you don't do that, then you actually only feed the feeling of insecurity and mistrust.

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Unknown: And especially now that it turns out that the Ministry has also warned internally, that is very serious.

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Unknown: And it is not the first time that things are being harnessed or kept secret by the Ministry of Justice.

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Unknown: And that makes us have the necessary questions. Why it can go wrong time after time. Chairman, in his letter the State Secretary writes that the discussions have been signalled that the categories were not good and that problems would arise.

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Unknown: And my question is very concrete, is that discussed with the State Secretary himself, or have others been around him who have discussed it?

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Unknown: Has the minister heard, or has the State Secretary heard that this has been a consideration in his final decision? And has he, I ask you Speaker, not made that decision himself? Because it is not the first time that the Chamber has very consciously asked for open transparency

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Unknown: of those numbers when it came to serious crimes in relation to asylum seekers. There had to be a bell ringing.

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Unknown: And chairman, I take it so high because it is not the first time that information on this department is blurred, not right, half is given again. It is no surprise that there have been complaints before on this department. And every time the betterment is promised.

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Unknown: What makes it so that this doesn't happen?

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Unknown: What makes it so that people make mistakes over and over again in this way? What makes it so that things can go wrong and that there is no learning? Who or what opposes that? And who or what can make sure that this doesn't happen anymore? Chairman, my last question, and it is just as relevant in terms of content.

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Unknown: Why can't we be transparent and honest about the numbers like it is about criminal asylum seekers, but why can't we get them out of the country? Despite all the harsh talk, despite all the serious words.

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Unknown: Chairman, in general, we must be able to trust in our country that the administrators are honest with us.

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Unknown: Even if that truth is sometimes a bit uncomfortable. Because we don't do that

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Unknown: dan voedt dat het gevoel van onveiligheid, dan voedt dat het gevoel van wantrouwen.

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Unknown: En vertrouwen, voorzitter, komt te voet en gaat te paard.

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Unknown: Dank u wel. Dan geef ik nu het woord aan de heer Groothuizen namens D66.

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Unknown: Speaker, thank you.

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Unknown: Speaker, I respect that the State Secretary is taking responsibility here today. Because that is necessary.

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Unknown: The theme of asylum is very sensitive.

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Unknown: And criminality by asylum seekers is perhaps the predominant step.

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Unknown: For many Dutch people it feels as if a guest is let in to make use of that guest freedom. And Speaker, how is it possible that on such a sensitive subject the State Secretary misses the plank in informing the Chamber?

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Unknown: It was these state secretaries who promised complete openness and transparency.

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Unknown: And rightly so, after the many affairs at his ministry in the past.

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Unknown: But how does that promise of complete openness and transparency relate to what has happened here? How is it possible, Speaker, that if the goal is complete openness, registrations of serious crimes will end up under the head of the government?

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Unknown: That the Telegraaf must insist on opening up several times?

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Unknown: That crucial and sensitive information is kept secret by the own officials of the State Secretary at the Ministry.

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Unknown: And that now it turns out that there were indeed signals that the return of figures in the foreigners' report could lead to questions and remarks, but that nothing has been done about it. And why was the blame directly put on the police? On all these points, I would like a response from the State Secretary.

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Unknown: Speaker, what makes all this even more obvious, the Ministry of Justice is not the first to be set on fire.

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Unknown: Time after time, the mistakes that VVD-conspirators have made have cost their heads. Time after time promises that things will get better in the future.

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Unknown: More openness, more transparency.

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Unknown: But again, the result is that unwanted facts, the reality, have been removed. Speaker, what does that say about the culture at the Ministry of Justice and Security?

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Unknown: JMV changes, as the change program is hopefully called. It doesn't look like it at all.

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Unknown: What does the cabinet do, I ask the State Secretary, to prevent us from standing here again soon and that the next person on trial is under fire? I would also like a reaction from the cabinet here.

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Unknown: And Chairman, then I want to make another point. D66 stands for the protection of refugees. Real refugees who need protection. We offer them a safe place.

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Unknown: They have a right to that.

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Unknown: And Chairman, over the past few days I have also been disturbed by the reporting.

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Unknown: Big words have been used about data that are often not so clear.

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Unknown: or where a complex world is at stake.

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Unknown: The nuances between registration and guilty are fundamentally in our rule of law. And I am convinced that too few nuances do no justice to the complex migration question, nor to the complexity of our rule of law. And even more so, I have disturbed myself by the ease with which people are not addressed on their individual actions, but on their association with a group.

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Unknown: And let me be very clear about that. For D66 that is not acceptable.

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Unknown: If people commit criminal acts, the police have to track them down. The Open Ministry can follow suit and present the case to the courts.

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Unknown: It is up to the government to be honest and transparent about it.

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Unknown: And it happens that asylum seekers commit criminal acts. We must not walk away from that. But I refuse to put a whole group away negatively because some of them do wrong things out of that group. That, as far as I'm concerned, is against everything that the Netherlands stands for.

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Unknown: Thank you.

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Unknown: Thank you. Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: Yes, Mr. President, I would like to ask the gentleman from D66, is that not the result of your European legend, your legend of the European Union, which says that all those fortune-seekers, all those profiteers may come in. We have seen how massive that has been in recent years.

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Unknown: And yes, some, it's almost the same word as the word of the state judge. It's about hundreds, it's about thousands of cases. And there are people in between who have raced, who have been murdered, who have attempted murder, who have abused people heavily, who have openly committed violence.

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Unknown: ...who have committed enormous shop thefts with violence. That is all the result of your European motto. Are you not able to... ...because of your multicultural drama... ...your open borders... ...which have led to this kind of misery... ...for those Dutch citizens in the area of those AZC's... ...which you have proudly erected with a D66 stamp... ...that that motto has now fallen into place. That we have to get rid of that. That we have to let the Netherlands be ours again. That we have to send those happiness seekers away.

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Unknown: Mr. Grootshuizen.

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Unknown: Speaker, a long story, but the answer is short.

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Unknown: No, Speaker. The migration issue is complex, but I think that the only way we can do that in good terms is European cooperation. Especially if we cooperate, we can solve this issue in a good way. And my party stands for something very different than the party of Mr. Wilders, who indeed does exactly what I just said in my first term.

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Unknown: Namelijk mensen over één kamp scheren en met allerlei onheuze bejegingen de één foute categorie aan toekennen. En daar pas ik voor.

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Unknown: De heer Deelders. Voorzitter, zij de collega van D66 nu.

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Unknown: in a good way. This is the result of your solution. In the past six years, under the leadership of Prime Minister Rutte, half a million non-Western immigrants have come in. There are 100,000 asylum seekers. This year, last year, still between 30,000 and 40,000 asylum seekers. Your European project, your project of the European Union, I must say.  It's a drama. It makes the Netherlands unsafe. It makes sure that our daughters are raped. That innocent people are murdered. Those are your asylum seekers. And it would be a shame if you would say, that's failed. I'm not going to do that anymore. But apparently you say, we can't talk about it. Come in and take care of the Dutch. Because you're going there. D66 is not for the safety of the Dutch. But it's for all those happiness seekers in the world. I'm not worth a penny.

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Unknown: Mr. Grootshuis.

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Unknown: Mr. President, Mr. Wilders has misheard my suggestion. D66 states that people who are being persecuted in their own country or who have to flee for war crimes, that we offer them a good home here, that we receive them in a suitable way. And yes, it also happens that people who request asylum commit criminal acts. We have to act against that. But what I refuse, president, what I refuse, is that we act as if everyone who requests asylum commits criminal acts. That is just permanent nonsense.

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Unknown: Mr. Wilders. Speaker, you just said, another point, that you think that the heart should be attacked. Well, if that was at least the case, but that is not the case either.

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Unknown: Of those 4,600 cases, of those heavy criminals, from robbers to murderers, from people with public violence to whatever, the worst crimes are five.

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Unknown: One handful.

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Unknown: A five.

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Unknown: Of those 4600, five have been removed. And do you know why only five have been removed? Because all European rules forbid us to expel people who have committed crime to the country of origin. So what Europe has done to ensure that all those guests come in and can rape our daughters and our women, Europe also ensures that we are not allowed to expel them, that we are not allowed to send them away. You are crazy!

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Unknown: Yes, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Wilders is wrong again. If he takes the trouble to go to Terapeu, then he can visit a prison there where a lot of people who are foreigners are. So there are a lot of foreigners who commit criminal offences that are indeed condemned in the country, sometimes even to very long prison sentences. And if Mr. Wilders says, yes, the withdrawal policy is the Achilles heel of our foreign policy, yes, I agree with him. That is very complicated. And there are also sometimes good reasons for it to be very complicated, but we have to work very hard on that.

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Unknown: Finally, on this point, Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: Yes, but chairman, I hear such an insane nonsense story. Working very hard, that comes from Brussels. I'm not talking about them going to prison here in the Netherlands. 99% of the Dutch, I'm sure the D66 background also thinks that murderers and rapists should also be sent out of our country. You have really spoiled your stay in the Netherlands if you do that. And then you say, we have to take care of it. It is Europe that makes sure  That we can't eliminate them. These are European rules. These are regulations of human rights. These are European regulations. They don't comply. So be a fan. And just say that Europe has made sure that they come here. That Europe has also made sure that we can't send them away. We are saddled with all those guys thanks to D66.

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Unknown: Speaker, it remains a bit of nonsense with regard to Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: The removal of the residence certificate and refugees is possible if they have committed criminal acts. That also fits perfectly within the European regulations.

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Unknown: And if Mr. Wilders, for the time being, refers to the European Act on Human Rights. Yes, if we were to send people back to a country where they are at risk of being hanged, for example, then the European Act on Human Rights is on the way to sending them back. And I am, to be honest, proud of that, because even for people who commit serious criminal acts,

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Unknown: certain basal rights are valid.

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Unknown: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Groothuizen.

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Unknown: Then I now give the floor to Mr. Van Ooyk on behalf of GroenLinks.

118
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Unknown: Well, Chairman, thank you. I don't think it has happened very often that a witness at a press conference before a chamber debate

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Unknown: the expectation that this could be his last debate.

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Unknown: We have experienced all kinds of variants of meetings in recent years. Meetings outside the Chamber. Meetings with a declaration preceding a debate in the Chamber. Meetings after a debate in the Chamber. But I don't know this variant yet.

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Unknown: Hence my first question to the State Secretary.

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Unknown: Does he still have the will or expectation to finish his term? Or is he, regardless of the outcome of this debate, planning to quit anyway? And if he comes to this heavy qualification of this debate, and apparently he did so this afternoon, why, I would like to ask him, that is my second question, why exactly now?

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Unknown: Because last week, this State Secretary already knew that information that he himself found and thought he had to go to the House, did not go to the House. Or has been removed from a category. You could also say that. So I'm very curious why exactly now, today, after the reconstruction that the State Secretary is talking about, he has come to the conclusion that

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Unknown: this might be his last debate. It is clear, Chairman, that with the political antenna on the Ministry of Justice and Security something is wrong. I think it has never occurred before that in a period of, what is it, about four years, four members of parliament were brought into such big political problems because

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Unknown: ...with the political antenna of the ministry for which they were responsible, something was wrong... ...in such a way that they eventually had to step down. I don't think that has happened before in Dutch political history.

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Unknown: The question is, of course, what conclusion do we draw from this?

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Unknown: What conclusion does the State Secretary draw from this? When it comes to cultural change, quality improvement, whatever you want to call it.

128
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Unknown: on the ministry for which he is responsible. By the way, this State Secretary, Mrs. President, fears that he not only takes the complete political responsibility for what goes wrong in his ministry, but also that he apparently leaves the information position of this Chamber so heavy and so that he takes that information position so seriously that he is ready, at least he has speculated about it at the press conference,

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Unknown: de zwaarste politieke conclusie die denkbaar is uit te trekken.

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Unknown: Voorzitter, wie in Nederland bescherming verlangt, die hoort zich fatsoenlijk te gedragen en onze gastvrijheid niet te belonen met wangedrag en het daarmee niet te verpesten voor die overgrote meerderheid van mensen die in Nederland asiel vraagt en die bescherming echt nodig heeft.

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Unknown: De woorden die collega Groothuizen daar zojuist over sprak, zei mij in dat verband  from the heart. Is it correct, as I would like to ask the State Secretary, that my impression is correct that it is often mainly about asylum seekers from so-called safe countries who commit these major mistakes. People of whom you could say that they may not have much to lose. People who do not have a right to protection here.

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Unknown: ...which should have been abolished, but for all sorts of reasons it didn't work... ...and which therefore lead to these missteps. Is that right?

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Unknown: And perhaps the State Secretary can tell us what has been happening in his ministry lately... ...to reduce the chance that this kind of people commit crimes. Chairman, I'm off. It is of great importance that we are honest about the burden and the crimes... ...that are committed by asylum seekers. It doesn't make any sense to sweep them under the carpet.

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Unknown: Problems need to be solved, not rubbed away.

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Unknown: And we hope that the State Secretary, this one or his successor, can take a quick step in that. Thank you.

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Unknown: Thank you. Then I now give the floor to Mr Jasper van Dijk on behalf of the SP.

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Unknown: Speaker.

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Unknown: De Kamer is vorige week onvolledig geïnformeerd door het Ministerie van Justitie en Veiligheid.

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Unknown: Er is informatie onder de pet gehouden door in een rapport over criminaliteit onder asielzoekers zware misdrijven onder de categorie overig te verbergen.

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Unknown: Dat is een ernstige fout, want het gaat om veiligheid voor het personeel, maar ook voor de samenleving.

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Unknown: The Ministry did not need to make these figures public. It is, among other things, about murder and murder, rape and sexual abuse.

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Unknown: Even after warnings, your ministry kept it full. The Chamber does not have to know this. That is not good to talk about. The departure of the State Secretary is inevitable.

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Unknown: But what exactly was the role of that State Secretary? Did he think about it himself?

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Unknown: Over the presentation of that reportage, did he think it was good to hide important figures? I would like a response.

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Unknown: Only through the telegraph did the entire list come to the table.

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Unknown: Again, we must receive the right information from the media instead of the government.

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Unknown: Funest for trusting in politics.

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Unknown: For the government, chairman, the truth is an option.

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Unknown: Only if lying can no longer be done, we will get the complete information. Initially, the police were still trying to put the blame in the shoes.

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Unknown: The ministry let it be known that it was the police.

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Unknown: who had compiled the figures in this way.

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Unknown: In response to the police, it turned out that the figures had been known to the ministry for a long time. Can the State Secretary confirm that? That would be shameless.

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Unknown: Has the government already offered excuses to the police?

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Unknown: De Kamer had per direct alle informatie moeten krijgen, voorzitter. Dat heeft de SP van begin af aan gezegd. De verhulling van cruciale informatie versterkt de indruk dat de leugen regeert.

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Unknown: Juist om draagvlak voor opvang van vluchtelingen in stand te houden, moet de regering alle informatie geven. Ook de onwelgevallige informatie.

156
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Unknown: Want voor de SP geldt, we bieden een plek aan mensen in nood...

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Unknown: But criminal asylum seekers, including many people from safe countries, must be arrested.

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Unknown: The numbers do not lie, as we know now.

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Unknown: It is not the first time that it goes wrong at the Ministry of Justice and Security. I mention the predecessors, Mr. Theven, Mr. Opstelt and Mr. van der Steur.

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Unknown: All witnesses in justice, all fired. What is going on at that ministry?

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Unknown: And then something else.

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Unknown: Het zijn ook allemaal VVD'ers.

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Unknown: Staatssecretaris Harbers is de vierde VVD'er die vertrekt bij justitie in vier jaar.

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Unknown: Hoe verklaart u dit?

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Unknown: Het lijkt wel een functievereiste om als VVD'er zaken onder het tapijt te schuiven.

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Unknown: De VVD als hoeder van de rechtsstaat is volstrekt ongeloofwaardig.

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Unknown: All VVD-ers, just like our prime minister. The end-responsible. That's why we wanted to have the prime minister in the debate.

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Unknown: But that didn't get any support from the coalition. While the prime minister has to look for a replacement.

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Unknown: And he also has to answer the question of how he is going to restore the credibility.

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Unknown: Thank you. I now give the floor to Mr. Bisschop, on behalf of the SGP.

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Unknown: Ms. President, thank you very much. With a certain regularity, the media reported about the criminal behavior of asylum seekers.

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Unknown: And that that gives a growing discomfort to society is evident.

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Unknown: And that then a report on the dossier of foreign affairs, a foreign chain, makes it extremely sensitive. Yes, you don't have to have a higher political feeling for that.

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Unknown: Informatie over ernstige criminele activiteiten van asielzoekers dient volstrekt, transparant en volledig te zijn.

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Unknown: Voorzitter, de staatssecretaris geeft aan dat er door zijn medewerkers diverse keren is gewaarschuwd dat de gekozen methode in de rapportage vreemdelingenketen een verkeerde voorstelling van zaken zou geven en in de Kamer en in de samenleving tot grote vraagtekens zou leiden.

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Unknown: And that under the political responsibility of the State Secretary it was still chosen to stick to the chosen form of reporting, that ten-point list, then also weighs very heavily on politics.

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Unknown: The State Secretary himself draws strong conclusions in his letter and the SGP faction does not feel the need to relate them in any way. We do insist, to express it explicitly, that the State Secretary

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Unknown: I have three more questions for the State Secretary. In the first place, to what extent was he himself at the forefront of the concerns of his employees about the presumed way of reporting, as he states in the letter?

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Unknown: Second question, what has the Secretary of State done to avoid the fact that in the report of the association chain, there would be complete openness about incidents with Al-Sizoukis?

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Unknown: And in the third place, the question, which measures has the State Secretary taken to prevent such a course of action on his ministry? I'm not going to repeat that. Colleagues have already, different colleagues have already pointed out that this ministry has often caused major political problems for the winning person.

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Unknown: Chairman, the SGP is looking forward to the reaction of the State Secretary.

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Unknown: Thank you. Then I now give the floor to Ms. Becker on behalf of the VVD.

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Unknown: Speaker, many people have understanding for the temporary protection of people who flee for war and violence.

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Unknown: Ms. Becker spoke for one second according to me, Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: Yes, that is true. But I wonder,

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Unknown: With all due respect to colleague Bekker, I asked myself where is Mr. Dijkhoff or where is the prime minister? Here is a state secretary who, if we may believe the media, has announced his departure himself.

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Unknown: And it seems as if the VVD can't kick him out as soon as possible. Where is the prime minister to support him? Where is the vice-chairman of the VVD to say what he thinks of it? Or to put his heart under the belt or to kick him out? Where is the VVD chairman? Where are they?

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Unknown: Speaker, the VVD is before you. I am a spokesman for the VVD in the field of asylum and migration. We have this debate with many other spokespersons of the different factions. You choose for it yourself, Mr. Wilders chooses for it himself to be here as chairman of the faction. But in my opinion that is up to each faction itself and I think that I can perfectly defend my faction myself.

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Unknown: Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: Well, and the applause is in any case enough trust in your own faction.

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Unknown: But I have my doubts about that, president. Not that you can defend that well, but it will not be the case that in this House, in a debate where a state secretary announces his departure, because he has done that more or less.

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Unknown: that it is not even carried out by party leaders, especially by the coalition parties and of those four coalition parties, especially by the VVD. They just let the State Secretary Harbors, like they used to do, just fall really hard. And for me it's okay. I think he should resign. So for me, no crocodile tears of help that man. But it is striking that Mr. Rutte and Mr. Dijk are probably drinking sherry somewhere and I don't know where in the neighborhood and just let him fall. Shame.

193
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Unknown: Ms. Becker. Speaker, Mr. Dijkhoff has just responded to several questions from the press. The debate is here today with the speakers and I will follow my speech. Go ahead.

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Unknown: I just said that people understand for the temporary care of people who flee for war and violence.

195
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Unknown: But it is unacceptable if that hospitality is abused.

196
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Unknown: By asylum seekers who steal, who commit violence, who commit a crime or even kill or murder someone.

197
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Unknown: There is only one answer here.

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Unknown: Asylum seekers who come here with a call for our safety, but then make our country more unsafe, must be imprisoned and expelled to never return.

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Unknown: And that has always been the agenda of the VVD over the past few years.

200
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Unknown: Not only from the Chamber, but also in the Cabinet.

201
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Unknown: Harder to deal with criminals and harassing asylum seekers. To put them in detention more often and faster. To refuse or withdraw a residence permit at a trial faster. To put them separately in ASO AZC's.

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Unknown: make agreements with safe countries such as Morocco and Algeria, so that the people who come from here can be sent back faster. And it fits into this agenda that my predecessor, Malik Asmani, earlier received the statement from the cabinet that there should be more transparency about the crimes committed by asylum seekers in the Netherlands. And I also believe that this is what these and earlier state secretaries had in mind.

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Unknown: Where in the past no incidents on co-allocations were reported at all, this has happened since 2016.

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Unknown: And in 2018 it has been decided to expand the reports even further to incidents outside of co-allocations. And rightly so. Because chairman, we need to know what possible insecurity is caused by asylum seekers in our society in order to be able to tackle them.

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Unknown: And we received that extensive report last week. But as far as the VVD is concerned, it should not only have been reported on how many incidents it was about, but also on what kind of incidents it was about.

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Unknown: And that serious incidents have come under the category of others is a mistake. And the State Secretary also thinks so, we read. Chairman, I have no reason to assume that the State Secretary has done this on his own. But the fact is, the mistake has been made.

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Unknown: And it annoys the Secretary of State that he will be responsible for this today.

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Unknown: I would like to ask the Secretary of State to explain how this could have happened. Because last week he wrote that there had been talks about a usual way of reporting for JNV, with a top-10 approach of the most common incidents.

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Unknown: And that serious incidents, unintended in the category, have disappeared.

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Unknown: But today I notice from his letter that the ministry has made a conscious decision to choose this way of reporting.

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Unknown: Can the State Secretary explain this?

212
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Unknown: How are the figures delivered by police and justice? And which decisions have been made accordingly?

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Unknown: And what exactly do they say about the number of actual crimes?

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Unknown: And what is the relation to the number of convictions and refusals rather than withdrawals of residence permits? There is still a lot unclear about that.

215
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Unknown: And finally, Chairman,

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Unknown: Which conclusions do not only draw the State Secretary today, but also draw the Department on how to act in the future? Because if the State Secretary takes responsibility for a mistake today, then the question for the future is still how better this kind of information will be transformed and whether that will actually happen. I would like an explanation.

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Unknown: Mr. Jasper van Eyck.

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Unknown: Yes, Chairman, serious crimes have been put under the rug. The Chamber was not allowed to know about this at the beginning. Only after the media started to attack, we now know what we are talking about. And I think that is a serious mistake of the Ministry and the responsible State Secretary. Does the VVD share this opinion? And can this State Secretary remain a member of the VVD or not?

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Unknown: Ms. Beck.

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Unknown: Speaker, I have just said that I have no reason to assume that this State Secretary is precisely busy with an agenda of more transparency and of the approach of criminal asylum seekers, that this State Secretary willingly and knowingly would like to sweep serious crimes under the carpet. But the fact is that the figures on these serious crimes have come under a category of others and that the VVD thinks that is wrong. I just said that clearly in my answer.

221
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Unknown: Mr. Jasper van Dijk?

222
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Unknown: That is not the answer to my question.

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Unknown: I would like to ask Mrs. Becker the question she asked the government last time. Namely, what is the ministry going to do to restore trust? And I have already said in my term that the past nine years, from 2010, that important Department of Justice is under the control of the VVD.

224
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Unknown: So I also have to be with the VVD. Which lessons will your party draw from this? And how are you going to restore trust in this ministry so that society can have confidence that this important department will be guided well? Because so far that has not been achieved for a meter.

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Unknown: Ms. Becker. Yes, Chairman, I just had it about the agenda of this State Secretary, as well as previous State Secretaries in the Department, precisely to tackle this kind of thing very hard and to make it more transparent. And I also believe that that is what the State Secretary wanted to do. The only fact is also that a mistake has been made here, of which I would like to know how that could have happened. And I don't just want the State Secretary to see that he is responsible for this today,

226
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Unknown: But I don't want us to walk away from this today and that the mistakes that are apparently made in the department can continue with that. So I want to know how this mistake could have happened and also which lessons the department will take for the future. I know that there is a very improved plan in the department for a cultural change, for more transparency, but apparently that has not yet led to the desired results. So I also have that question.

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Unknown: Mr. Jasper van Dijk. Chairman, finally.

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Unknown: Does Mrs. Bekker of the VVD have the guts

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Unknown: om hier te erkennen dat het niet alleen gaat om incidenten de afgelopen negen jaar met vier achtereenvolgende aftredende VVD-bewindslieden.

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Unknown: Heeft zij het lef om te erkennen dat het niet gaat om incidenten, maar om een patroon?

231
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Unknown: And that it would be very bad if the Prime Minister would just appoint a replacement of the State Secretary of the VVD and would just go to the order of the day. Do you recognize that there is a structural problem with VVD supporters in this ministry?

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Unknown: Ms. Becker?

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Unknown: Speaker, I don't think there is anyone here who pleads for it to just go back to the order of the day. But I also refuse to take part in the insinuations as if there would have been talk of a political strategy to sweep things under the carpet. It was the VVD, it was the party of these state secretaries who forced more transparency to come. In the past, this kind of incident was not reported at all. That this report is there is, among other things, an appeal to the VVD.

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Unknown: And of course, lessons should be taught on how this kind of mistakes can be prevented in the future. And I have asked the same question as Mr. Van Dijk.

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Unknown: Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: Speaker, could the colleague of the VVD also ask, do you think that state secretaries should resign?

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Unknown: Look, Mrs. Becker, I have heard colleagues who have already drawn that conclusion before they have heard the answer from the State Secretary. I have read the letter from the State Secretary in which he writes that he cannot imagine, or can actually mainly imagine, that this would be his last debate. I think it would annoy us as spokespersons to first give him the opportunity to explain and possibly even draw his conclusions, than that I am going to do that now.

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Unknown: Mr. Wilders.

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Unknown: We already know what. Look, I think that it happened on purpose. You think not, but the fact remains that at least under the responsibility of the State Secretariat, the Chamber is not fully informed. And we, so our task, we are paid for it, to control the cabinet. And one of the major priorities is that the Chamber is not fully informed. Imagine that this remains redundant immediately, regardless of the motives, that this remains redundant, that the Chamber is not fully informed.

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Unknown: Do you think he should resign?

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Unknown: Mr. Speaker, the remarkable thing is that even before we received the letter from this State Secretary today, Mr. Wilders already thought last week that this State Secretary should resign. Even before he could read that this State Secretary had indicated that it is possible here not only unintentionally, but perhaps also consciously made a decision.

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Unknown: And I think that the decision has to be made first by the State Secretary. Mr. Wilders supports motions of mistrust in both fleets. He thinks that the cabinet should be removed. That is clear. I think that we deal with this State Secretary a lot more neatly by giving him the first chance to give his own answers.

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Unknown: It's not about dealing with these state secretaries, it's about dealing with the Dutch population. And the Dutch population is being turned away by the VVT every time. You open the borders, you make sure that people can't be excluded. And it turns out for the second time in three years that the Telegraaf comes up with that information. First through a WOP request and then, you were both times in the cabinet, then by calling yourself.

244
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Unknown: And instead of the state secretary coming with it, we have to find out through journalism that they are murderers, that they are rapists. Why don't you go after those Dutch people who are then victims? The family members of those girls who are rapists or those people who are murdered. You shouldn't go after that. You shouldn't have respect for the man who put it under the carpet, but for the Dutch.

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Unknown: Speaker, I think you will stand behind the Dutch by taking responsibility for a strict and just migration policy. And I think that's what the VVD is doing by taking responsibility, by sitting in the government. We tried a very short time together with Mr. Wilders to make the asylum policy stricter.

246
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Unknown: And when he had the chance, he ran away from the cat house at some point. The VVD does take that responsibility. With the Asmani plan, we have been able to ensure that the influx to the European Union with a Turkey deal is eventually evaporated. We have ensured that criminal foreigners, if they commit a crime and they have a residence permit, that the residence permit can be entered faster. That is governing, that is taking responsibility.

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Unknown: It is easy to say here every week that everything is wrong and that the VVD is not behind the Dutch, while the only solution of the PVV is to withdraw from the European Union behind the dikes. That is only a false idea of things with which the Dutch are not given justice.

248
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Unknown: The truth is that you are a member of a huge mafia gang.

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Unknown: You are a member of a huge mafia gang that, and I see that you can count on voting in the VVD corners, that every time again ensures that there are hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands of non-Western immigrants coming to this country.

250
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Unknown: That the asylum seekers center still has 30,000, 40,000 per year.  That they murder, that they rape, that they commit theft with violence. And that it is muffled under the carpet by your VVD. Madam, give an answer to that. Muffled under the carpet. You do not have the policy of solving. The VVD causes these problems. And every time there is a new VVD minister or state secretary.  Or the Minister of Justice, who is not a bonnet for a criminal, then it is a murderer and a rapist from an AZC under the carpet. That is what he does, that is the VVD.

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Unknown: Madam Speaker, I still have to see Mr. Wilders' first plan, which is serious, which is feasible, to be able to inflate real inflow in the Netherlands and to make our asylum system stricter and more just. And then it is called from the PVV banks Brexit. Well, and Nexit. Well, we all know what that could have for disastrous consequences for the Netherlands. So join the parties that make constructive suggestions. As my colleague Asmani has done.

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Unknown: then around the Turkey deal, but is also doing now to continue to work with circular migration. To make agreements with African countries to decide whether people have the right to reception. About reception in the region. Those are serious proposals. You will need a EU for that. So it is completely unrealistic what Mr. Wilders is proposing here today.

253
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Unknown: Finally, Mr. Wilders. Circular migration, I think nobody at home understands that.

254
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Unknown: What is being said here. I think I will say the word.

255
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Unknown: Circular migration, it is really abacadabra language. That will also come from Mr. Osmani. He goes to Europe for this misery. But I will tell you with whom we are going to cooperate. You are going to cooperate with the people a la Verhofstadt.

256
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Unknown: The Belgian liberals who only want more Europe, more European Union and even more boats. I will tell you with whom we are going to cooperate. We are going to cooperate with Matteo Salvini, the man in Italy who pushes back the boats. Who ensures that Italy becomes safer, that fewer people come from Africa. You, the VVD, under your responsibility you bring the boats here. We are going to cooperate with the people who push them back.

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Unknown: You are going to cooperate with the people who let them come, who only want more Europe, who only want more asylum, who only want more crime. We are going to cooperate with the heroes of Europe against the monster of the European Union.

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Unknown: Mrs. Becker.

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Unknown: It's almost impossible to follow. Mrs. Becker has

260
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Unknown: That people don't come here for a better life, but that people stay there and that the African countries will also work on that. We will have to make strict agreements about that. And that is also what I mean with circular migration, because Mr. Wilders thinks that is a difficult word. But that means that people would never be able to stay here permanently when it comes to the VVD.

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Unknown: that it will be judged whether people have rights to shelter and that eventually, if people come here temporarily, they will have to be able to earn a place in society. Well, these are all serious proposals and I understand that Mr. Wilders does not want to listen to them, but I have not heard the first serious proposal from his side again as chairman. Thank you.

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Unknown: You are welcome.

263
00:52:20,472 --> 00:52:25,056
Unknown: Then I now give the floor to Mrs. van Kooten-Arissen on the party for the animals.

264
00:52:36,516 --> 00:52:44,239
Unknown: Speaker, thank you. Speaker, the goal of the State Secretary was to give complete transparency, as he wrote in his letter today.

265
00:52:45,940 --> 00:52:53,304
Unknown: But we are here today, precisely because not only did the complete transparency disappear, but even the minimal transparency disappeared.

266
00:52:53,905 --> 00:53:00,847
Unknown: There have been serious mistakes made, facts blurred around public order incidents with asylum seekers.

267
00:53:01,369 --> 00:53:19,998
Unknown: Heavy incidents have disappeared under the hood of the rest. Information has been rummaged away, by rummaging away the facts in stacks. And that is unfortunately exemplary for the Ministry of Justice and Security, where these mistakes form the locks in a unfortunately long list of misdeeds on this ministry.

268
00:53:20,958 --> 00:53:30,242
Unknown: Although other ministries, on which beneficiaries have been hit in difficulties, have been in order these past years.

269
00:53:31,204 --> 00:53:44,175
Unknown: Chairman, in the past, we have experienced too often that people who win often stay too long against better knowledge and do not take their political responsibility on time and are eventually forced by the Chamber to step up.

270
00:53:44,956 --> 00:53:53,643
Unknown: This State Secretary-elect, Chairman, has already indicated in advance in this debate that this is most likely his last debate as State Secretary.

271
00:53:54,516 --> 00:54:04,722
Unknown: but that he still wishes to take responsibility for the Chamber. With the fact, unfortunately, about how things could have gone wrong, how it is possible that the Chamber is not informed. And that annoys him.

272
00:54:05,342 --> 00:54:17,751
Unknown: The party for the animals has respect for that. And we would like to ask the State Secretary to take the opportunity to take responsibility and then take the political responsibility and the political honor to himself. And that is courageous.

273
00:54:18,907 --> 00:54:27,311
Unknown: Chairman, I already said it, the many problems at the ministry are structural and last for a very long time. This is not the first person of interest to step up.

274
00:54:27,871 --> 00:54:43,382
Unknown: I mention ministers Opstelten, Van der Steur, State Secretary Steven, all VVD members indeed, it has been said before. Chairman, structural problems must be addressed structurally. Unfortunately, this will not happen with the rise of this State Secretary.

275
00:54:44,480 --> 00:55:06,907
Unknown: Speaker, that is why I want to know from this State Secretary whether he recognizes that the problems on his ministry are structural. That those problems are not solved with the entry of this State Secretary, no matter how very rightly. And I would like to know from him what should happen according to him to solve those structural problems. The decision to step up

276
00:55:08,552 --> 00:55:15,202
Unknown: Will the Secretary of State perhaps give the wings and the freedom to speak out about it? Speaker, thank you.

277
00:55:16,103 --> 00:55:20,650
Unknown: Thank you. Then I now give the floor to Mr. Froedewind on behalf of the Christian Union.

278
00:55:36,184 --> 00:55:43,126
Unknown: Thank you, Chairman. Let me begin by speaking on behalf of my party, the Christian Union, for the fact that the State Secretary is here.

279
00:55:44,086 --> 00:56:01,010
Unknown: And that he wants to take responsibility for what has happened so far. The course of affairs that he sketched in his letter today shows again the political culture of the Department of Security and Justice. How does he reflect on this himself?

280
00:56:02,349 --> 00:56:04,851
Unknown: The shortcomings in the report are indeed signalled, he writes.

281
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,882
Unknown: And that is why I hope that he can answer the following questions for us.

282
00:56:10,463 --> 00:56:27,833
Unknown: Were the state secretaries there at the time that there was talk about the misleading way of categorizing the figures and that could lead to questions and comments? If not, then was he aware of who made those comments?

283
00:56:28,994 --> 00:56:33,317
Unknown: And if not, what reason was given to him afterwards for the fact that he was not aware of these comments?

284
00:56:35,708 --> 00:56:46,114
Unknown: What reasons have been given for the fact that those comments have not led to adjustments to the report? And who has decided not to adapt the report in line with those comments?

285
00:56:46,893 --> 00:57:02,300
Unknown: Why did you not ask yourself for the large category of the remaining 1,000 incidents, 25% of the total? What I also do not understand about the letter is the conclusion of the State Secretary, that all this did not happen with conscious intentions.

286
00:57:03,344 --> 00:57:11,068
Unknown: Why not? Why is the State Secretary based on that? There has been a conscious consideration to not do it with for and against arguments.

287
00:57:11,949 --> 00:57:14,451
Unknown: Speaker, then a few questions about the content itself.

288
00:57:15,572 --> 00:57:29,001
Unknown: We now know that asylum seekers were suspected of 31 cases of murder or death. If you put that down against the total number of cases of murder and death in the Netherlands, then I go from the latest figures known from 2017, then I come to

289
00:57:30,949 --> 00:57:38,871
Unknown: Almost 20%, Speaker. Does the State Secretary know if the suspects in these cases are then also prosecuted and condemned? Can he say anything about that?

290
00:57:39,951 --> 00:57:54,054
Unknown: And what happens next with asylum seekers who are specifically in the picture for the prosecution of such crimes? Is there enough serious work being done to get these people out of the country? Is it true that only five asylum seekers have been released because of crimes?

291
00:57:54,914 --> 00:57:58,114
Unknown: And, Speaker, what makes me the most sad and also a bit angry,

292
00:57:58,869 --> 00:58:02,889
Unknown: is that I get a lot of files on my desk from asylum seekers whose stories have been rejected.

293
00:58:03,429 --> 00:58:15,994
Unknown: And in many of those cases you can still ask yourself whether the right has been done to these people, whether their story has been sufficiently argued, and whether the rejection has been justified. And these people are then exposed.

294
00:58:16,673 --> 00:58:28,157
Unknown: Against this category, the IND and the DTUV are very strict and tough. But that is very different from asylum seekers who really cause problems. And they mainly come from safe countries. We have seen it in the report.

295
00:58:29,286 --> 00:58:33,128
Unknown: There, the IND seems to act much less strongly.

296
00:58:33,668 --> 00:58:55,597
Unknown: Even if these people are convicted of a crime, that in many cases has no consequences for their stay. I find that irrefutable. And I would like to put it the other way around. Finally, I hope that the State Secretary, or if he leaves, his successor, will do a strong job of better transparency, honest information from the Chamber and a harder performance against criminal asylum seekers.

297
00:58:56,369 --> 00:59:02,934
Unknown: to finally make it possible for the real refugees to be able to stay here. Thank you, Mr. President.

298
00:59:02,954 --> 00:59:08,920
Unknown: Thank you. Then I now give the floor to Mr. Hiedema, on behalf of Forum for Democracy.

299
00:59:22,976 --> 00:59:31,083
Unknown: Thank you chairman, Mr. Secretary of State, I would almost say we are there again. So it is again about the criminal asylum seekers.

300
00:59:31,603 --> 00:59:43,693
Unknown: What a fiasco and what a Damascus that has lived on. First we were not allowed to know that they could at all show criminal inclinations, because they are sinful and they are asylum seekers, so the people do not have to know that.

301
00:59:44,512 --> 00:59:49,277
Unknown: When we were allowed to know a little, tip of the hat, that the reality was different,

302
00:59:50,275 --> 00:59:58,038
Unknown: Then we couldn't know in how many cases those people were really being prosecuted. You really had to look through to see if they were being prosecuted as criminals.

303
00:59:58,759 --> 01:00:09,163
Unknown: And now we are so far that people of suspicion, of murder, of suicide also belong in that category. And now we just have to assume that they are being prosecuted.

304
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:11,541
Unknown: The question of the State Secretary is still there.

305
01:00:12,061 --> 01:00:32,385
Unknown: In the interest of the safety of the country, I would like to ask him whether the people who are included in that category, whether they are being followed. Because it is also not a good thing to follow someone like that. Whatever it is, the letter of the State Secretary, let her read it, like a stick in her own back, I would say, of course.

306
01:00:33,447 --> 01:00:38,608
Unknown: There is complete transparency. That is what the State Secretary wrote in the letter.

307
01:00:40,465 --> 01:00:59,978
Unknown: So we have to know, from my point of view, I'm not mopping anything away. That's where it comes down to. I'm not mopping anything away. Well, then there is an internal report, and then you think, huh, what? Is this possible? What has happened? Well, you let go of a simple deduction on this letter. Then you don't understand anything anymore. Discussions have been held at the department, says the State Secretary.

308
01:01:00,769 --> 01:01:15,449
Unknown: This has signalled a shortcoming. That can't be otherwise than that there are officials who think, hey, not everything is in there. Not everything is for the people to know. That should be the shortcoming. Those serious cases, those are cases that the people are not allowed to know.

309
01:01:17,931 --> 01:01:32,844
Unknown: The rest is sweet cake, they can eat it. But the worst cases have to be eliminated. That was the point of discussion at the depot. Nothing else. Discussions were held and the shortcomings were singled out. My question is, was the State Secretary there?

310
01:01:33,744 --> 01:01:37,608
Unknown: If that is not the case, then the seriousness of what was said there is serious.

311
01:01:38,646 --> 01:01:58,313
Unknown: Then you have to think that a conspiration is to remain silent. Opposing the Secretary of State. If those civil servants are talking about those terrible cases, those murders, and all those terrible things, they just don't have to be included. And the Secretary of State is there. Then it turns out that the Secretary of State also doesn't have a comfortable position to listen to that. Or did he just walk away?

312
01:01:58,853 --> 01:02:00,614
Unknown: And then there was a consideration.

313
01:02:01,335 --> 01:02:06,936
Unknown: With the Secretary of State or through that club of civil servants. There was a consideration, says the letter.

314
01:02:08,588 --> 01:02:12,391
Unknown: for the categorization that would lead to questions or comments.

315
01:02:13,152 --> 01:02:24,460
Unknown: To which she simply, in plain language, says, Guys, there's a lot going on, but we're not putting it in. We'll see where the ship lands. The State Secretary hasn't heard anything. We'll see where the boat lands.

316
01:02:25,202 --> 01:02:29,786
Unknown: And if it goes wrong, then we'll blame the police. Something like that is there, the cookstove, it can't be otherwise.

317
01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:37,641
Unknown: What was concealed there was clearly a lie and they decided together that they would conceal it. Namely those serious crimes.

318
01:02:38,342 --> 01:02:42,302
Unknown: And then it was decided that the concealment of the serious incidents.

319
01:02:43,003 --> 01:02:46,463
Unknown: That is not a mistake, as it is said here. That is deceit.

320
01:02:47,543 --> 01:02:57,286
Unknown: That is simply abuse of the people. Something else has nothing to do with it. You are taken by the nose by your own Ministry of Justice and Security.

321
01:02:57,990 --> 01:03:01,771
Unknown: And the Secretary of State is there or not, but he is the boss.

322
01:03:02,353 --> 01:03:14,257
Unknown: You can't do anything else about it. If you have such a large number of officials behind your back, who are so cocky about this, and with the most extreme, the most harmful cases, fear for the people, cover up?

323
01:03:15,456 --> 01:03:22,699
Unknown: Yes, then you don't want to be in the vicinity of such a department, I would think so. So then that was decided.

324
01:03:23,411 --> 01:03:33,621
Unknown: And, that is the most unbelievable passage, the next one, that concludes the Secretary of State, please. There is no indication that this has happened with a conscious intention.

325
01:03:34,121 --> 01:03:43,371
Unknown: Although he has said all the time that there has been a consideration, there has been categorized, there has been chosen. But it is not with a purpose, not with a conscious intention.

326
01:03:44,036 --> 01:03:55,840
Unknown: That's not even with a sleeping cap. It has no conscious intention, but knows exactly what's going on. And otherwise, the Open State Secretary is going to tell here, but that intention was not conscious. That is also baseless. That is not possible.

327
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:56,942
Unknown: Are you going to end it, Mr. Hinema?

328
01:03:57,262 --> 01:04:12,947
Unknown: Yes, the letter is the best proof that it has happened. That it has happened with a purpose. That we would not know what's going on. And that it is better for the people's feeling to not come to know it. Yes, and now we are with the blogs.

329
01:04:13,527 --> 01:04:14,889
Unknown: Thank you. Thank you.

330
01:04:15,409 --> 01:04:35,206
Unknown: Then I will now give the floor to Mr. Öztürk, on behalf of DENK.

331
01:04:35,246 --> 01:04:41,731
Unknown: Chairman, there are three integrity rules at the bottom. That's it.

332
01:04:42,275 --> 01:04:46,456
Unknown: standaard handelswijze van VVD-bewindspersonen.

333
01:04:46,956 --> 01:04:48,476
Unknown: Dat is hun handelsmerk.

334
01:04:49,416 --> 01:05:04,161
Unknown: Elk departement waar VVD'ers het voor het zeggen hebben, lijkt binnen no time af te glijden tot een soort wilde westen, waar alles geoorloofd is om maar met de grijpgrage klauwen vast te kunnen klampen aan het plush.

335
01:05:04,762 --> 01:05:05,762
Unknown: Machtpatsers.

336
01:05:06,643 --> 01:05:11,985
Unknown: De zelfbenoemde crimefighters van de VVD hebben een totale puinhoop gemaakt

337
01:05:12,592 --> 01:05:25,376
Unknown: van de ministerie van Justitie en Veiligheid, de bonnetjes van Theven en van der Steur, de onderzoekresultaten van het WODC manipuleren, en nu keihard schoemelen met cijfers.

338
01:05:26,056 --> 01:05:34,079
Unknown: De VVD en de waarheid forsden een soort niet-communicerende vaten, die sluiten elkaar wederzijds uit.

339
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:36,740
Unknown: Alles is gehoorloofd bij de VVD.

340
01:05:37,706 --> 01:05:46,030
Unknown: This State Secretary is politically responsible for a parliamentary death sentence. The Chamber is not fully informed.

341
01:05:46,809 --> 01:05:52,952
Unknown: In the report on suspicions of asylum seekers, will and knowledge is reported about a top 10.

342
01:05:53,896 --> 01:06:16,422
Unknown: As a result, the most serious incidents, incidents with enormous consequences such as murder and rape, have been put under the category of others. Despite the fact that his ministry has been warned by willing officials that this is careless, the figures on serious crimes have therefore been removed. So it is good that this State Secretary takes his responsibility.

343
01:06:17,003 --> 01:06:21,023
Unknown: That he, like Theven and Van der Steur, disappears.

344
01:06:21,753 --> 01:06:39,324
Unknown: Because how can it happen that serious crimes such as rapes have been stopped in the report? How is it possible to rhyme with a state secretary who says he wants to be transparent? Are the official advice not to report with a top 10 of crimes also to these state secretaries?

345
01:06:40,144 --> 01:06:51,391
Unknown: Was he at the mentioned discussions about the report? So yes, why did he continue this way of reporting anyway? So no, why did these important signals not reach him?

346
01:06:52,168 --> 01:06:55,250
Unknown: Safety has again been deeply pierced through.

347
01:06:56,030 --> 01:07:10,639
Unknown: Wouldn't it be reasonable to agree that for five years no VVD'ers are allowed on justice and safety? I think Mr. Wilders would like that very much. Five years no VVD'ers on justice and safety. Speaker, there is a downside.

348
01:07:11,284 --> 01:07:21,949
Unknown: Now here it comes. Just as dangerous as the VVD, Lich and the money industry is that criminal record numbers about refugees by Forum for Democracy and the PVV are being abused.

349
01:07:22,789 --> 01:07:27,690
Unknown: A professor said, you have small lies, big lies and statistics.

350
01:07:28,311 --> 01:07:32,512
Unknown: It is a new model of earning, the use of hate and the act in fear.

351
01:07:33,418 --> 01:07:42,360
Unknown: Two weeks ago, a Syrian family was seen in Enschede by an angry crowd of people who played for their own rights in their own home.

352
01:07:43,061 --> 01:07:59,367
Unknown: This kind of terrible events are one-on-one to lead back to the climate of hatred that is sowed by Wilders and Baudet on the basis of numbers. People are scared by the PVV and the Forum for Democracy for people pulling strangers in bushes.

353
01:08:00,246 --> 01:08:00,626
Unknown: Only 0.9%.

354
01:08:02,847 --> 01:08:14,577
Unknown: Van alle verdenkingen van zedemisdrijven betreft vluchtelingen. Van veruit de meeste daders lijken veel meer op de heer Wilders en Baudet dan de gemiddelde vluchteling. Voorzitter, ik rond af.

355
01:08:15,438 --> 01:08:18,360
Unknown: Laten we dus vier lessen trekken uit dit debat.

356
01:08:19,582 --> 01:08:22,765
Unknown: Misdadigers moeten altijd gestraft worden.

357
01:08:25,106 --> 01:08:26,528
Unknown: Messentrekkende, ja, meneer Wilders.

358
01:08:27,248 --> 01:08:30,511
Unknown: Laten we vier lessen trekken uit dit debat.

359
01:08:31,494 --> 01:08:32,775
Unknown: Criminals. Lessons.

360
01:08:35,719 --> 01:08:36,279
Unknown: Four lessons.

361
01:08:37,020 --> 01:08:53,412
Unknown: Criminals must always be punished for their crimes. This State Secretary must leave for five years. No more VVD-ers on the Ministry of Justice and Security. And let's fight hard against the climate of hate that is being sowed in the direction of refugees by Wilders and Baudet.

362
01:08:54,354 --> 01:08:57,496
Unknown: Thank you. Finally, I give the floor to Mr. Krol on behalf of 50PLUS.

363
01:09:08,426 --> 01:09:27,472
Unknown: 50PLUS praises the State Secretary for this debate. And a big compliment for the Telegraaf, who raised the lower stone. And as far as I'm concerned, this debate is about the appropriate figures, about the heavy violations among the group of asylum seekers.

364
01:09:28,146 --> 01:09:35,412
Unknown: On April 18, the House of Representatives held a full debate on the Pendelbus for burdening asylum seekers.

365
01:09:35,993 --> 01:09:38,534
Unknown: Whether the bus became free, that is not possible.

366
01:09:39,195 --> 01:09:55,368
Unknown: With the knowledge of now, you feel quite disheartened with recurring force. It is no longer just about burden. We are talking about serious crimes on a large scale committed by asylum seekers. The figures revealed by the Telegraaf last week are shocking.

367
01:09:56,074 --> 01:10:22,609
Unknown: In 2018, 31 times in the category of death and murder, 79 city abuses and 51 times severe abuse. According to the police, this was known to the judiciary for weeks, but they were removed under the cap. By the way, can we get the guarantee that the Chamber is still correctly informed or is a parliamentary investigation needed?

368
01:10:23,453 --> 01:10:27,658
Unknown: Are there, in that number of 31, also attempts to murder and murder?

369
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:30,582
Unknown: That is of course also very disturbing.

370
01:10:31,203 --> 01:10:36,469
Unknown: And is there already guilt shown? And so yes, the asylum seekers were followed and they were executed.

371
01:10:38,400 --> 01:11:00,753
Unknown: Onze vraag is of en hoe deze cijfers in de officiële politiestatistieken terecht komen. En we vragen ons ook af wat er in 2017 gebeurde. Wat waren de cijfers toen? En wat is er te zeggen over het lopende jaar 2019? De fractie van 50PLUS stemde als een van de weinigen hier in dit huis tegen het Marrakesh Pact.

372
01:11:01,333 --> 01:11:06,756
Unknown: Wij vrezen dat de toestroom van ongewenste migranten uit veilige landen alleen maar groter wordt.

373
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:16,104
Unknown: 50PLUS wants a change in the EU migration policy. Now asylum procedures start in the country of destination.

374
01:11:16,703 --> 01:11:23,827
Unknown: That does not work. If it is 50PLUS, migrants can only request asylum in their own country via a Dutch embassy or a joint EU embassy.

375
01:11:27,061 --> 01:11:38,753
Unknown: About allowing migrants, a member state decides for itself. Now we just wait for who comes in. We plead for an active policy, which work and knowledge migrants need.

376
01:11:39,474 --> 01:11:42,957
Unknown: The safe countrymen who come to the Netherlands as refugees go for their turn.

377
01:11:43,548 --> 01:11:53,530
Unknown: They prey on real refugees who do not have the means for the journey. 50PLUS wants refugees to be able to request asylum alone via a UN refugee camp.

378
01:11:54,091 --> 01:12:03,853
Unknown: Supported refugees are divided over the EU states. The expectation is that the refugee flow from safe countries will eventually dry up with this new approach.

379
01:12:04,393 --> 01:12:11,774
Unknown: These safe countries do not go to such a UN refugee camp. They do not flee for war, violence or persecution.

380
01:12:12,516 --> 01:12:31,670
Unknown: Het is ongewenst om iedereen toe te laten. Daardoor wordt de druk op de bewoningmarkt en ons sociale zekerheidsstelsel alleen maar groter. Bovendien, en dat baart ons grote zorgen, komt de acceptatie van mensen die het echt nodig hebben, onnodig onder druk te staan.

381
01:12:32,189 --> 01:12:33,251
Unknown: Ik dank u wel, mevrouw de voorzitter.

382
01:12:33,770 --> 01:12:39,515
Unknown: Dank u wel, meneer Krol. En daarmee zijn we aan het einde gekomen van de eerste termijn van de zijde van de Kamer.

383
01:12:40,101 --> 01:12:49,387
Unknown: The State Secretary has no need for criticism and wants to react immediately. The word is to the State Secretary of Justice and Security. Speaker, thank you.

384
01:12:56,771 --> 01:12:59,814
Unknown: Earlier today I read a letter in your room.

385
01:13:01,710 --> 01:13:14,417
Unknown: in which I stated that I would like to make a personal statement about the emergence of the incident review of police and public ministries, as recorded in the report Vreemdelingenketen.

386
01:13:15,337 --> 01:13:24,404
Unknown: And I thank your Chamber for giving me that opportunity now. After the publication of that incident review last week,

387
01:13:25,020 --> 01:13:31,662
Unknown: questions arose, first in the media and then directly in your chamber, about what these figures exactly contained.

388
01:13:33,083 --> 01:13:35,965
Unknown: There was criticism of the division of the report.

389
01:13:37,125 --> 01:13:46,168
Unknown: Because in that was chosen for a top ten of the most common reports of crimes committed by people who are residents of an asylum seeker center.

390
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:55,251
Unknown: And precisely the most serious facts are therefore included in the remaining category.

391
01:13:56,951 --> 01:13:59,591
Unknown: That division was more than unfortunate.

392
01:14:00,212 --> 01:14:03,351
Unknown: And the objection about it is understandable and justified.

393
01:14:04,692 --> 01:14:10,913
Unknown: Because the House of Representatives, I know that, also wants to be proactively, precisely and clearly informed about this subject.

394
01:14:12,434 --> 01:14:15,913
Unknown: And I myself also find that of the greatest importance.

395
01:14:16,774 --> 01:14:18,454
Unknown: The asylum policy is based on scope.

396
01:14:20,182 --> 01:14:25,644
Unknown: en draagvlak kan alleen bestaan bij de gratie van openheid en transparantie.

397
01:14:26,784 --> 01:14:30,666
Unknown: Maximale transparantie is steeds mijn doel geweest.

398
01:14:31,805 --> 01:14:40,347
Unknown: Diezelfde transparantie was juist ook de aanleiding om het incidentenoverzicht op een nieuwe leest te schoeien.

399
01:14:42,097 --> 01:14:53,341
Unknown: Before, only the figures such as incidents took place at asylum seekers centres and now all incidents, also from residents of asylum seekers centres elsewhere, so outside the asylum seekers centres.

400
01:14:54,342 --> 01:15:10,548
Unknown: And the number of incidents went up enormously for that reason and that was extremely worrisome. From 1090 last year to 4600 this year. But that striving to offer that maximum transparency has taken Aave right.

401
01:15:12,391 --> 01:15:18,375
Unknown: De Kamer is, met de gekozen manier van rapporteren, uiteindelijk niet goed geïnformeerd.

402
01:15:19,996 --> 01:15:29,381
Unknown: En in de brief die ik uw Kamer daarover afgelopen donderdag 16 mei schreef, heb ik u een eerste toelichting gegeven op de totstandkoming van de gehanteerde indeling.

403
01:15:30,643 --> 01:15:34,944
Unknown: En tevens heb ik u alsnog het overzicht verstrekt van die categorie overig.

404
01:15:36,126 --> 01:15:41,389
Unknown: En ik heb daarbij erkend dat de gekozen wijze van rapporteren ongelukkig

405
01:15:42,006 --> 01:15:43,387
Unknown: and has not been good.

406
01:15:44,128 --> 01:16:07,646
Unknown: Whereby I also admitted that it was not intended. Chairman, there have been many questions, but they all come down to a few parts in the core. The first, the occurrence of the figures. The second, what do those figures themselves say and the explanation of it. And then, what does this mean for the Ministry and the way it works at the Ministry of Justice and Security.

407
01:16:08,238 --> 01:16:13,838
Unknown: I want to go into that order and at the end I will report to you what conclusions I connect to that myself.

408
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:19,320
Unknown: First of all, the occurrence of those figures.

409
01:16:20,780 --> 01:16:34,543
Unknown: After the publication in the media last Thursday, I of course gave my employees an assignment to reconstruct the process of the occurrence of the incident overview. And that reconstruction pointed out

410
01:16:37,573 --> 01:16:46,420
Unknown: For me, at least, on the question of whether the objections that have been raised against the way of reporting, even internally, have been reported.

411
01:16:48,902 --> 01:17:02,654
Unknown: Chairman, I saw the answer in the reconstruction that I received late last night. And the answer to that question is confirming. And that is the reason why I am here today.

412
01:17:04,627 --> 01:17:18,096
Unknown: At different times, employees have pointed out that the categorization of serious facts in a category of others would be dubious and could lead to confusion and legitimate questions.

413
01:17:20,939 --> 01:17:33,408
Unknown: Speaker, and what is crucial for me in this, is that I have found that in the discussions about the occurrence of the report, at some point it was found

414
01:17:34,523 --> 01:17:56,782
Unknown: that the numbers that were registered in the past were distributed to the House of Representatives namely on three parts, customs cases, drug and alcohol abuse and traffic crimes that they would end up in the category of others by the chosen division and for that reason would no longer be visible to the House of Representatives.

415
01:17:58,481 --> 01:18:24,204
Unknown: I have also noticed that there has already been discussion that the House of Representatives, especially with regard to insight into these crimes, has a lot of interest. Chairman, I myself personally, last night, at the end of the evening, took knowledge of the discussion that took place. And at the same time that does not do anything at all.

416
01:18:26,213 --> 01:18:36,600
Unknown: Because even though I personally had no knowledge of it, it did happen under my administrative responsibility. I am responsible for that and I take that responsibility.

417
01:18:38,140 --> 01:18:44,503
Unknown: It has also been asked what happened next, how the review will eventually come about. And I can't help but note that

418
01:18:50,337 --> 01:19:10,613
Unknown: I also wrote to your Chamber, I have not seen any signals that it has been deliberately chosen or kept to this unit. There has been a lot of discussion. There has been discussion about the three categories that were previously extended to the Chamber and whether they should not be extended at least.

419
01:19:11,414 --> 01:19:18,079
Unknown: But what that means on the other hand for the other incidents that are in the category that are left in their place.

420
01:19:19,679 --> 01:19:30,649
Unknown: And then there was also a discussion about what exactly those incidents mean, what such a number means. I will go into more detail later on what that indication is.

421
01:19:31,789 --> 01:19:45,481
Unknown: And somewhere in that process it was then found, due to those inconsistencies, that there was a rush in the numbers, that it was difficult or perhaps at that moment it was impossible to split them out so clearly.

422
01:19:46,198 --> 01:19:55,003
Unknown: that the conclusion has been reached there to make the incident review, to report, as it is ultimately extended to your Chamber.

423
01:19:55,925 --> 01:20:04,229
Unknown: And of course, I myself had to ask for at least two more questions.

424
01:20:04,890 --> 01:20:10,755
Unknown: The first was at the moment that the report, that presentation, was presented to me.

425
01:20:12,407 --> 01:20:18,871
Unknown: Where I then agreed on it, but of course I should have asked what exactly falls in that category.

426
01:20:20,252 --> 01:20:31,037
Unknown: Whereby I do not want to do anything about the fact that all incidents that were reported in the top 10 also gave me a lot of concern. Because behind every incident, every incident is one too many.

427
01:20:31,597 --> 01:20:35,961
Unknown: And as members of your chamber also say, behind every incident there is possibly also a victim.

428
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:38,582
Unknown: And that is above me.

429
01:20:40,113 --> 01:20:58,238
Unknown: Each incident is one too many and must be prevented. But then this report was chosen. I agreed on that and I could have asked that. Second, what I could and should have done was after that last Thursday, that commotion had arisen. And I have reported to you that this

430
01:21:07,332 --> 01:21:15,753
Unknown: ...unintentionally and exclusively the consequence of the chosen report in a top 10. A report that, by the way, is not unusable and is also used in many other reports.

431
01:21:19,202 --> 01:21:40,289
Unknown: That that was the only one, and of course I would have had to ask further about whether that was really the only consideration. And as I just told you, I had to find out about that last night, that it was indeed discussed for that.

432
01:21:41,310 --> 01:21:51,591
Unknown: Chairman, I just told you, not only that consideration is ultimately  the wrong one, an incorrect, wrong decision.

433
01:21:52,231 --> 01:22:01,896
Unknown: But what played a role in the discussion was that the figures themselves also raised a world of questions.

434
01:22:03,818 --> 01:22:14,384
Unknown: Many members of your chamber have referred to the example of the 31 reports on the subject of murder and death.

435
01:22:15,524 --> 01:22:43,912
Unknown: Can you now draw the conclusion that murder and death has occurred 31 times? Chairman, in closer examination of these figures, by the way, the Public Ministry is still investigating, so that is still in progress, that is not definitive evidence, but for the time being research by the police on these incidents, it turns out that in the case of the 31 registered incidents of murder or death,

436
01:22:45,228 --> 01:22:57,113
Unknown: In fact, it is about 25 unique events, of which two registrations involved process information. That is a seponation and a DNA removal.

437
01:22:57,873 --> 01:23:01,836
Unknown: And one incident at a later moment is qualified as a simple misconduct.

438
01:23:03,336 --> 01:23:13,261
Unknown: Of these incidents, almost in all cases there is talk of an attempt to kill or murder. And in one case it concerns a perpetrated crime in which a deadly victim was murdered.

439
01:23:15,712 --> 01:23:26,661
Unknown: Then, by the way, at the moment I am standing in front of you, the police and OM are still working on a closer analysis. And that takes time, because the relevant registrations have to be carried out manually.

440
01:23:27,542 --> 01:23:37,871
Unknown: To prevent more mistakes from being made due to the speed, I want to give the police and the public ministry the time to investigate this well. Your chamber will be informed about this at a later moment.

441
01:23:39,355 --> 01:23:53,479
Unknown: Ik heb dit voorbeeld eruit gelicht, juist omdat het zoveel indruk maakt en zoveel impact heeft, die 31 meldingen. Maar tegelijkertijd als illustratie wat er eigenlijk, en dat weten we nu, achter die cijfers nog meer schuil gaat.

442
01:23:54,514 --> 01:24:21,485
Unknown: In total, the 4,600 reports that are in the report are what they are. They are all reports, all incident registrations with the police. And to have the full picture, you will actually also have to have the whole world behind it. And I have also assigned a task there in the past few days. Because, as I said, there must be maximum transparency. And that also means something for the next reports, which then also have to convey the full picture.

443
01:24:26,095 --> 01:24:31,356
Unknown: There is also a question in the Chamber, if you look further at that group, are these for example safe countries?

444
01:24:32,137 --> 01:24:35,719
Unknown: And here I also want to consider that care.

445
01:24:36,399 --> 01:24:42,322
Unknown: Yes, reports are made about for example the share of safe countries in the asylum chain.

446
01:24:43,360 --> 01:25:06,621
Unknown: But just this incident report is based on numbers from the police, in which there is no mention of origin. So I can't answer that question, when it comes to this report, simply. But it's about the whole thing. I refer to the debate that I held with your Chamber a month ago. Because of course there is reason for care on that ground, for a lot of care.

447
01:25:12,417 --> 01:25:18,662
Unknown: There is also a question of what happens next. Yes, that is exactly where we need the information of the public ministry.

448
01:25:19,502 --> 01:25:27,168
Unknown: That is about the prosecution, the all-or-nothing prosecution of people and ultimately that all-or-nothing leads to criminal prosecution.

449
01:25:27,850 --> 01:25:33,234
Unknown: And that is exactly what I want to be in and I refer to what I just said, that is still being worked on, that statement is still in progress.

450
01:25:34,653 --> 01:25:46,779
Unknown: And only with an unquestionably imposed penalty do you possibly have a reason to refuse or withdraw a residence permit. Not earlier, that is how it is arranged here.

451
01:25:47,619 --> 01:25:58,445
Unknown: And of course, everyone who says, yes, and then succeeds to exclude people, I am the first to admit that there is a big hiatus in the system.

452
01:25:59,286 --> 01:26:02,648
Unknown: For reasons that some countries do not take back their subordinates.

453
01:26:03,498 --> 01:26:26,306
Unknown: and for the reason that in some cases people, even if they are convicted, still have the protection due to Article 3 of the EVRM and are not exempt for that reason. I refer to many debates that I have conducted about this with your Chamber. I have already mentioned a few times that the figures are derived from the police.

454
01:26:28,068 --> 01:26:29,028
Unknown: There is therefore also no

455
01:26:29,635 --> 01:26:41,542
Unknown: guilt to the police, as someone in the Chamber ordered. The police, as it turned out to me in the past few days, has extended the full overview, as requested by the Ministry.

456
01:26:42,362 --> 01:26:53,988
Unknown: So all incidents under the hood, too. Subsequently, agreements have been made over and over again, where it has been agreed that when asked about this report,

457
01:26:55,011 --> 01:27:21,538
Unknown: These would be answered from the department, where they go about all the figures that we covered in the past. And by the police, where it concerns the figures that have been delivered by the police. In other words, the agreement was that the police would give a closer understanding of what questions would arise. And at the same time, that did not go well, because that immediately led to the image that the police and the ministry themselves  stand against each other.

458
01:27:22,099 --> 01:27:42,375
Unknown: That agreement has not been made, on the contrary, but through miscommunication it has unintentionally led to this effect. Speaker, what may have come most to the fore is what this says about the Department of Justice and Security.

459
01:27:43,456 --> 01:27:47,998
Unknown: About the course change that has been made to change the ministry.

460
01:27:49,438 --> 01:27:50,658
Unknown: om de cultuur te doorbreken.

461
01:27:51,859 --> 01:28:01,341
Unknown: En ieder die zegt, het zit in het water op het departement, het gebeurt er altijd, wil ik wijzen op mijn persoonlijke ervaringen daar in de afgelopen anderhalf jaar.

462
01:28:02,082 --> 01:28:03,863
Unknown: Ik heb daar persoonlijk niet van gemerkt.

463
01:28:04,483 --> 01:28:10,824
Unknown: En dus ook al helemaal niet dat dat structureel zou zijn. Integendeel, er wordt hard en conscientieus gewerkt.

464
01:28:11,979 --> 01:28:21,743
Unknown: Ik ben ook niet tegengekomen, ook niet in deze casus, zoals ik u net uiteenzette, dat er doelbewust, dus om te verhullen, tot deze categorisering is gekomen.

465
01:28:22,344 --> 01:28:36,069
Unknown: En ik heb zelf al helemaal nooit opdracht gegeven om bewust cijfers bij elkaar te voegen of te verhullen. Integendeel, mijn motto is altijd geweest, door draagvlak krijg je alleen door maximale transparantie.

466
01:28:37,490 --> 01:28:39,492
Unknown: Maximale openheid. En ik heb dus...

467
01:28:40,061 --> 01:28:46,103
Unknown: Ook niet geconstateerd dat daar ergens een poging is geweest om dat doelbewust te verhullen. Integendeel.

468
01:28:48,764 --> 01:28:51,283
Unknown: Wel kan het beter. Dat leer ik ook uit deze zaak.

469
01:28:53,045 --> 01:28:56,524
Unknown: Welke maatregelen moeten dus genomen worden om dit te voorkomen?

470
01:28:57,706 --> 01:29:09,207
Unknown: Voorzitter, wat ik zelf in gang heb gezet de afgelopen dagen op dat gebied, is de toezegging die ik deed aan de Kamer afgelopen donderdag om voortaan alle cijfers niet uitgesplitst, of uitgesplitst,

471
01:29:09,909 --> 01:29:16,951
Unknown: and that there is still work to be done to make a closer understanding of this in order to have the picture complete in the future.

472
01:29:18,091 --> 01:29:36,515
Unknown: And I have also indicated that my motto, maximum openness, maximum transparency, not only in these figures, but I also say to you here in the Chamber, always when it comes to the asylum chain, serves to be the first and leading motto. And there is therefore also no

473
01:29:37,416 --> 01:30:02,274
Unknown: of absurdly confusing speech. Absolutely not, on the contrary. Because then someone would have to give the assignment to that, or then they would also have to decide there in mutual consultation. That has not happened, as I have been able to determine from the facts so far, on the contrary. At the same time, the image that has arisen is of course more than unfortunate.

474
01:30:06,337 --> 01:30:06,698
Unknown: Chairman,

475
01:30:08,671 --> 01:30:09,211
Unknown: I will round off.

476
01:30:11,233 --> 01:30:15,936
Unknown: The fact is that, well, I want to answer interruptions first.

477
01:30:16,636 --> 01:30:17,757
Unknown: Mrs. Van Toornburg.

478
01:30:18,279 --> 01:30:36,573
Unknown: Speaker, because just before that round-off I have a question. Because if the officials then notice that the most serious crimes are not being mentioned and a presentation is being held of there is some theft, there is some demolition and some junk. Where is the antenna of the people to ensure that this is told to the Chamber?

479
01:30:38,204 --> 01:30:39,206
Unknown: The State Secretariat.

480
01:30:39,907 --> 01:30:53,244
Unknown: Well, Chairman, I have established that this antenna was present at the beginning of the process. Especially the recognition that these are data that the Chamber had in the past and now would probably also very much like to get.

481
01:30:55,100 --> 01:31:13,208
Unknown: And somewhere in the process after that, that has been lost and I have given you the reason, the fact that there has been a lot of discussion about it, precisely also to see what those figures exactly meant and whether it is still convenient to extend these figures in this way.

482
01:31:13,929 --> 01:31:19,252
Unknown: And then it played a role in that the three categories that were reported to the Chamber in the past

483
01:31:20,729 --> 01:31:30,033
Unknown: within that category did not have the highest number of figures, so that would lead to a discussion why these three do highlight that and others do not.

484
01:31:31,295 --> 01:31:44,680
Unknown: And I said it earlier, of course, that was not the right decision, on the contrary, because then the answer should have been and should have been yes, if this leads to this kind of discussion, maybe we should subtract all the figures.

485
01:31:47,095 --> 01:32:04,956
Unknown: Mrs. van Toornburg. Yes, chairman, I find it very annoying, but it remains a struggle for me that you eventually get an image of about 80 thefts and vandalism. And that there is an official and he sees on his desk and 79 cases in which there is a relationship with murder and death. And then I find it strange.

486
01:32:05,661 --> 01:32:27,506
Unknown: That people don't say, this can't go to the House. And that there are leaders who accept that. I would like to ask the State Secretary, maybe that will come later, if the OM has its figures. What makes it that no one at the ministry says, this can't go away. Now we have an image of 80 thefts and 79 murders, we don't tell. Which may not be there, but we still don't know.

487
01:32:28,900 --> 01:32:38,207
Unknown: Just to be precise, murder and suicide was 31. There were other categories that were above, for example, insult. And it was exactly this discussion.

488
01:32:38,828 --> 01:32:52,717
Unknown: It has also been, yes, when the last of the top ten ended at 80, but the first of the remaining category also at 80, then I was afraid that that would raise questions again why 81 is more important than the other.

489
01:32:53,578 --> 01:33:04,122
Unknown: I tell you, from my responsibility, that shouldn't have happened. Because then all the figures should have been placed. But I give you again what the discussion has been.

490
01:33:04,162 --> 01:33:04,962
Unknown: Mr. Grootshuizen.

491
01:33:05,684 --> 01:33:16,948
Unknown: Thank you, Speaker. First of all, thanks to the State Secretary for the nuances that he brings into the debate. Because I think that was sometimes a search in the last few days. And I think it's very good that he explains what the world is behind those figures.

492
01:33:17,708 --> 01:33:18,850
Unknown: But I do have a question about that.

493
01:33:19,350 --> 01:33:28,918
Unknown: Because the State Secretary says, I don't think it was conscious. But conscious means that you have thought about it somewhere. And there is thought, because we know that from the answers of the State Secretary and also from the letter.

494
01:33:29,920 --> 01:33:42,409
Unknown: And how can it be that a certain selection is chosen? Because I see the world behind the numbers, the complexity, but the State Secretary can explain it here too. Why wasn't it chosen to just explain that complexity in the reportage?

495
01:33:43,805 --> 01:33:47,429
Unknown: Yes, let me make it clear that this should have happened, of course.

496
01:33:47,949 --> 01:34:07,865
Unknown: And maybe it would have taken more time, then the report would have waited a little longer. That is the conclusion that I have already drawn myself. This is not the report as I wanted it to be and as it was intended. But at the same time, it is the report that has come about under my responsibility and ultimately with my approval. Because this is exactly what makes it...

497
01:34:10,356 --> 01:34:16,385
Unknown: insight is still not complete, even if you subtract all the figures, but those figures have not yet been deduced, then we do not know much yet.

498
01:34:18,453 --> 01:34:52,275
Unknown: Mr. Groothuis. Yes, Mr. President, I agree with the State Secretary, but still a little more precisely. Because even in the figures that have been shared with the Chamber, I emphasize that the same nuance and the same complexity is there. Because 2030 shop thefts, well, I dare to assume that they are not all round-up cases, but that there are double counts in them. And apparently the conclusion has not been chosen from that, we do not bring that to the Chamber. So the question that still floats above the market, in my opinion, is how come that a certain category, where at least the serious ones are in, are not reported.  And a certain category does. And I still don't have the answer to that. And therefore also not the confidence that the leak on the ministry is above.

499
01:34:53,395 --> 01:34:54,337
Unknown: The State Secretary.

500
01:34:54,457 --> 01:34:59,260
Unknown: Well, let me tell you that a lot of learning has been taken from this case as well.

501
01:34:59,939 --> 01:35:05,503
Unknown: And it speaks for itself what Mr. Groothuis states. Look, I just stated that I have...

502
01:35:06,431 --> 01:35:07,592
Unknown: Mr. Grootshuizen.

503
01:35:36,604 --> 01:35:49,411
Unknown: I don't agree with the State Secretary, but I still have the feeling that the question of why a certain position has now been taken, that it is swaying me over the market, is a bit of a struggle that Mrs. Torrenburg also has, in my opinion, and that does not give much confidence for the future of this department.

504
01:35:51,551 --> 01:35:52,212
Unknown: Mr. Van Ooyk.

505
01:35:53,051 --> 01:36:01,555
Unknown: Yes, Chairman, thank you. I have said in my contribution that it has never occurred to me before that in such a short time, on one ministry,

506
01:36:02,193 --> 01:36:12,917
Unknown: so many dissidents came into such big political problems. Does the Secretary of State agree with me? And if he agrees with me, what conclusion does he draw from that?

507
01:36:13,597 --> 01:36:14,557
Unknown: The Secretary of State.

508
01:36:15,158 --> 01:36:27,984
Unknown: I think a bit, yes, to immediately draw a big conclusion from that, because every case is also on itself. So I can only talk about my own situation and there I will tell you at the end of the debate what conclusion I connect to that.

509
01:36:33,054 --> 01:36:57,068
Unknown: That's how Mr. Van Ooijek would see a pattern. In the past year and a half, I have determined that, exactly what I just told you, that I have not come across that there is an atmosphere or a culture here that purposefully things are taken together, are covered, on the contrary. That it has happened anyway, I regret first.

510
01:36:59,673 --> 01:37:20,143
Unknown: Yes, Chairman. Of course I listen well to what the State Secretary says about his own experience. But he will, just like all of us, also think about what has happened to his predecessors. And the extent to which the problems in which his predecessors have been affected by his ministry.

511
01:37:21,435 --> 01:37:34,708
Unknown: or not, are solved by processes of change that have taken place. And then, yes, then the conclusion can't sound any other than that that process of change is apparently still, well, then I say it neatly, in its children's shoes.

512
01:37:34,809 --> 01:37:37,551
Unknown: Yes, chairman, you know, if there

513
01:37:43,822 --> 01:38:00,654
Unknown: If there really would have been a commission from Voeg het maar Samen, or if there had been a deliberate request from Voeg het maar Samen, because then some things are less visible, then Mr. Van Ooyen would have been right. But that is not the case. In the first place, I have always pushed myself to...

514
01:38:01,212 --> 01:38:13,658
Unknown: open and transparent, to give shape to this new report. I have never given an assignment to do this. On the contrary, if I ever would have been asked, I would have always decided to have maximum openness and transparency.

515
01:38:14,658 --> 01:38:25,804
Unknown: I assume that it is the outcome of the entire work process to get to this report, but that does not matter how it all went and who and what and such, because in the end I bear full responsibility for it.

516
01:38:27,297 --> 01:38:28,398
Unknown: Mr. Van Ooyenck.

517
01:38:28,417 --> 01:38:58,289
Unknown: Chairman, the State Secretary sees that he is taking full responsibility. He also sees that he is taking it up for his ministry. But where he himself and where this Chamber has always harnessed so much on the necessity of transparency, and the State Secretary has just talked about it again, then it is actually unthinkable that this kind of essential data is not shared with the Chamber from a department, from a ministry, where so often earlier  that have come into the problem.

518
01:38:59,949 --> 01:39:00,930
Unknown: Mr. Voordewind.

519
01:39:03,011 --> 01:39:24,518
Unknown: Mr. Chairman, I would like to make an assessment of the State Secretary. When he saw the reports and saw a category of 1,000, and undoubtedly the other categories that did fall under it, the top ten, he was not surprised that one out of 25 of the cases did not fall under it. So among the other categories of the total, what is it, 4,500, he was not surprised.

520
01:39:25,811 --> 01:39:28,673
Unknown: to know what exactly fell under that 1,000?

521
01:39:29,694 --> 01:39:40,622
Unknown: The State Secretariat. Speaker, I have just indicated that I could and should have asked what fell under that category.

522
01:39:41,162 --> 01:40:06,261
Unknown: And at the same time I will give you my other feeling. Because I saw that table and with all the things that are already in the top ten, you are sometimes very scared.  So the overall picture was already a picture of a lot of incidents, 4,600. That is a high number compared to the total of the population. So I was already shocked enough with the rest of the table. But I had to add one question to that.

523
01:40:06,301 --> 01:40:08,181
Unknown: Mr. Voerderwind.

524
01:40:08,402 --> 01:40:16,926
Unknown: Chairman, we eventually had the table with all the incidents. Of course, it would have been better if we had had this in the report, because it was only one A4.

525
01:40:17,800 --> 01:40:26,085
Unknown: But then the State Secretary must have noticed that the serious incidents were not in the top ten. The serious incidents were in the top ten.

526
01:40:26,685 --> 01:40:33,930
Unknown: And I now understand from the State Secretary that he did not ask about that. But does he not find that a serious misjudgment of his officials?

527
01:40:34,970 --> 01:40:43,695
Unknown: The State Secretary. Yes, Speaker, it speaks for itself that I had the insight in it in advance.

528
01:40:45,462 --> 01:40:48,984
Unknown: Nevertheless, I cannot turn that clock back.

529
01:40:49,024 --> 01:40:50,623
Unknown: Then I suggest that you proceed.

530
01:40:50,764 --> 01:41:11,832
Unknown: Yes, Chairman. And on the main themes that the Chamber put in order, I have given you my answers. I have given you, in particular, how this report came about. The fact is that that report raised questions. That shouldn't have happened, because my goal was to be completely transparent.

531
01:41:14,137 --> 01:41:20,582
Unknown: En toen dat donderdag bleek, heb ik gemeld dat het onbedoeld en alleen het gevolg van het presenteren van een top 10 was.

532
01:41:22,284 --> 01:41:35,114
Unknown: Vandaag heb ik bij de reconstructie van de totstandkoming van dit rapport, is mij gebleken dat daarbij wel is onderkend dat door deze wijze van rapporteren deze gegevens wegvielen.

533
01:41:36,756 --> 01:41:42,761
Unknown: Dus de mededeling dat het alleen een gevolg was van de gekozen presentatievorm,

534
01:41:43,572 --> 01:41:47,792
Unknown: It is not true, because it was previously explicitly mentioned in the process.

535
01:41:48,472 --> 01:41:54,913
Unknown: And with that, I have also informed the Chamber, last Thursday, after the commotion, falsely.

536
01:41:57,515 --> 01:42:03,916
Unknown: And that this way of reporting data fell away, that took place under my administrative responsibility.

537
01:42:05,556 --> 01:42:12,297
Unknown: And not only am I responsible for this in the legal sense of the word, I also feel responsible for it.

538
01:42:15,054 --> 01:42:25,965
Unknown: In particular, not only because Van Metervaan was my only goal, that openness and transparency, but in particular when it comes to the public order and all data on incidents.

539
01:42:27,185 --> 01:42:33,572
Unknown: And that is essential, because this is the most important, the biggest problem in my portfolio.

540
01:42:34,472 --> 01:42:38,296
Unknown: A problem that occurs week in week out, where I have taken measures

541
01:42:39,871 --> 01:42:46,954
Unknown: But if I take measures, then at least the facts below must be completely open, visible and transparent.

542
01:42:47,975 --> 01:42:55,219
Unknown: And only in this way can we work at the necessary level for the protection of real refugees.

543
01:42:57,199 --> 01:43:07,385
Unknown: And given all this, the trust between your Chamber and me, and I also attach myself to the fact that at this point there can be no doubt,

544
01:43:08,804 --> 01:43:17,131
Unknown: Juist ook vanwege de ernst van de problematiek met overlastgevenden zal ik Zijne Majesteit de Koning verzoeken om mij ontslag te verlenen.

545
01:43:18,231 --> 01:43:23,155
Unknown: Ik dank de Kamer voor het in de afgelopen periode in mij gestelde vertrouwen. Dank u wel.

546
01:43:24,436 --> 01:43:36,327
Unknown: Ik dank de staatssecretaris voor zijn antwoorden. Ik waardeer het zeer dat de staatssecretaris hier heeft gestaan en verantwoording aan de Kamer heeft afgelegd. Het is een pijnlijk moment, maar ik dank u.

547
01:43:36,844 --> 01:43:44,113
Unknown: Thank you very much for your presence and for this moment I would like to make the suggestion to close the meeting.